In Ep. 006 of Living with Money, I talk with Bill Mackanic from Mackanic Media Video Productions. We dive into Bill’s history working in film to ultimately deciding to open his own production company after Hurricane Sandy hit. Bill takes us on a journey through the years of Mackanic Media and how he recently had an awesome defining moment for the business. From being a business owner to an artist, Bill offers insights on how to follow your passions, and make your own dreams a reality. Here’s Ep. 006 of Living with Money, my conversation with Bill Mackanic.
006 – Bill Mackanic – Mackanic Media Video Production – Transcript
Tim Mullooly: Welcome back to Living with Money. This is Tim Mullooly. Today, we have Bill Mackanic from Mackanic Media Video Production here with us. Bill, thanks for coming in.
Bill Mackanic: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.
Tim Mullooly: Awesome. As you know, I work at Mullooly Asset Management. Mackanic Media was the company, if you live in the area and have Optimum, you’ve probably seen our TV commercials out there. Bill and his crew were the brains behind our TV commercials. Bill, why don’t you tell the listeners how you got started in film and what was your background leading up to working in the film industry?
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, sure. I would love to. It really goes back to middle school. I was in sixth grade. An art teacher kind of took me under her wing, Miss Gerbrick. She asked me if I wanted to be part of her film club. It was called the Cool Electric Eye film club.
There was just a handful of kids that were selected to be in the film club, and I was lucky enough to be one of them. That experience in middle school really changed my life. I guess I won my first film festival in eighth grade. Once that happened, I had a standing ovation. I mean, a giant theater full of people, I was hooked.
Tim Mullooly: You just catch that film bug.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, I got bit and it just went on from there. I studied at American University and Seton Hall in film production and television production. While I was still in college, I had the chance to work. I was freelancing at ABC and ESPN. I also worked with Fox Sports Net for a bit in boxing. But we were doing Monday Night Football with ESPN and ABC.
I learned a lot about television production for those years. And then also learned a lot at internships. One in particular that really got me on the right track in this business was my internship at the New Jersey Film Commission. I still keep in contact with the people running the film commission in Newark.
It’s been a really great relationship and resource, too, for film and television producers over all these years.
Anyway, and then I got my first full time crew job, staff production job in public television. That’s about 20 years ago. For about 15 years, I was in public television and I loved it.
Tim Mullooly: With the public television, were you working the camera or were you editing or doing kind of a little bit of everything?
Bill Mackanic: Well, when I first started, I started as a part time production temp is what it was called. I was making minimum wage, but I was hungry because when I went to college and when I went to film school, I had to pay for myself. My late father, God rest his soul, he was a railroader. My mother stayed at home, like a lot of moms did back then. We had a great family, but we didn’t have money.
My parents were just making ends meet, so if I wanted to go to school, I had to pay for myself. I had a much deeper appreciation for the position and for the opportunity that public television offered to me. And when I got … I was willing to work, of course, part time, temp, whatever they needed me to do.
Tim Mullooly: Right, just make the most of it.
Bill Mackanic: Just to make the most of it. And I was part time for about a year, then I got … and that was a tech. I was running cables. That was back in the analog days when everything was still cables and videotape and trucks and satellite trucks and a lot of big heavy equipment. So we did a lot of that. Then we were doing a lot of sports production then.
But then I got hired on full time as a production tech. Then that became a senior production tech about a year after that. Then I got promoted to associate producer. About a year after that, I got promoted to producer. Only a short time later, I was promoted to senior producer director.
Tim Mullooly: Rising through the ranks.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah. And I produced my own television show for 10 years. I was very, very proud to do that and very blessed to do that, and had a great run. Producing a half hour magazine show about the great state of New Jersey.
Tim Mullooly: That’s awesome.
Bill Mackanic: I had awesome crews. The leadership in the company was amazing. I learned my skills and honed my craft. But to answer your question more completely, yes started running cables, doing camera, editing, writing, producing. Then producing directing, on location studio remotes.
Tim Mullooly: So really just touching all your bases and honing in your skills.
Bill Mackanic: Got to do a little bit of everything, yeah.
Tim Mullooly: So I’m sure that helped you along the decision to ultimately start your own production company. When and how did you come to that realization that that’s what you wanted to do?
Bill Mackanic: You know how they say out of tragedy sometimes comes triumph, I guess.
Tim Mullooly: Rise from the ashes.
Bill Mackanic: Right, right, right. You’re making lemonade out of lemons, so to speak. Well, it was really because of Hurricane Sandy. To make a long story short, I guess in a nutshell, like I said I was producing this TV show and I was a senior producer on a TV show called Neighborhood Journal. And I had an amazing team of producers working with me on that show.
I had some really dedicated, hard-working guys who, when the rest of the company, when the company first time ever closed down during that week, like so many others did in this state. Our company shut down, they said, “Everybody go home and take care of your homes and your families.” I decided that I wasn’t going to do that.
Of course, I made sure that my wife and kids were safe at home, but I went right back to work because like I said, for 10 years, we’re producing a television show about life here, mainly at the Jersey Shore. That wasn’t the time for us to go home and hide.
Tim Mullooly: Something, the subject matter of what you’re covering is getting taken down in a hurricane. It’s not the time to pack up.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah. That’s what literally happened. It was pretty much in a matter of, the hurricane hit and within 24 hours, each of us, me and three or four other guys on the crew, we hit the street, so to speak. We had great relationships with the public officials, with the elected officials. Did a lot of work at government affairs, so we knew a lot of the neighbors. I’m sorry, a lot of the mayors. I call them neighbors. We still do.
When I started to reach out to some of these shore towns to speak with some of these mayors, I asked them how we could help. They said, “Well you’ve got to get the word out,” because the networks from New York and Philly were flying the helicopters over and they were focusing on the devastation and the buildings, or lack thereof, and I mean on the roller coaster in Seaside, but we were down there when that happened.
And there were people standing on that beach who had lost everything. And those network cameras were not on those people. They were on that devastation because that’s what was grabbing the headlines at the time.
We decided that we were going to do what we could to get the word out because these communities really needed help. And again, to try to make a long story short, without wanting any recognition, and none of us really were even thinking of it at the time, what wound up happening is we wound up getting an award. We were recognized. We produced two specials.
We got the word out about the need, the real need, the human suffering that was going on at the time, but we were recognized by the company. And then we had an opportunity to submit a few of the segments for the Emmy awards. I think the show in total got nominated for four, and won two for two segments.
Tim Mullooly: Wow.
Bill Mackanic: So I was very proud of the crew for that. It was really thorough, hard work in their accomplishments. Probably that January or so is when I, well it was really that December was when I really started to think about my own future. I mean like so many of us reflected upon our lives.
Tim Mullooly: Right, kind of starting over after the hurricane, yeah.
Bill Mackanic: Anyway, but once with that recognition and that acknowledgement, I guess, of our work, I started to really think about it then. And I started to think, “Well, what about” … I always worked in other studios and I always worked in network studios. I always worked for other production companies.
Like so many of us, we always dream about doing it and being out on our own. So I had a dream for a long time that I wanted my own studio. So I figured, you know what, maybe that was the time to go for it.
Tim Mullooly: Yeah, I mean after everything got wiped out, what better time? Get a clean, fresh start. You worked for a long time, like you were saying, in other people’s studios. Were there any specific difficulties you found once you were out on your own? Things that you might not have expected in terms of running your own company?
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, there’s a pretty good size investment in gear. I knew right out of the gate that it was going to be that way.
Tim Mullooly: Right, that comes with the industry.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah. I started from scratch. I had to take a lot of money that I had saved for retirement, actually, but I decided, you know what, now’s the time, so I invested in a lot of equipment. That was difficult. Coming from a television production background, I worked for networks. I really didn’t think a whole lot about hardware, software for that matter.
Tim Mullooly: With networks like that, it’s just provided, yeah.
Bill Mackanic: It’s provided. And then also on top of that, and then when I started, I was working out of my house, like a lot of people do. My wife and I started looking around for a building, and then that became a whole other set of financial challenges.
Somehow we figured it out, and I’m happy to say that it’ll be three years this spring that I own a building.
Tim Mullooly: Well, congratulations on that. It’s impressive.
Bill Mackanic: Thank you.
Tim Mullooly: I mean, it’s been a handful of years now that you’ve had the company. Like I said before, we have first-hand experience working with you guys. You made our TV commercials. What kind of services do you offer clients, businesses, individual people? What can you do for people?
Bill Mackanic: A lot, but before I say that, I want to have to correct you because earlier you said that we were the brains behind your TV commercial. I’m sorry, I respectfully disagree. You guys were the brains behind your TV commercial.
Tim Mullooly: Okay. Fair enough, but you made it come to reality.
Bill Mackanic: Right. It’s a collaboration.
Tim Mullooly: Right.
Bill Mackanic: I can still remember when I first sat down and met with you guys. We talked about your commercial. You guys, you had a vision. You had an idea of what you wanted it to be like. And as I got to know you guys, I realized what your strengths are. But anyway, so we do TV commercials, videos for websites, and of course social media, corporate and industrial videos, so any kind of corporate events.
Everything from fashion shows to concerts. Aerial drone cinematography. That’s exciting. Real estate video and photography. We do script development, storyboard. But anyway, so we do location scouting. We were just recording in our studio with the United Way last week.
Tim Mullooly: Wow.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, they had some pretty tremendous people that came in. It was a real honor to have them at Mackanic Media Production Studios.
Tim Mullooly: That is really cool.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, to have the folks at the United Way. We do a lot of work with non-profits. It’s really excellent work. Editing, graphics design, web encoding, DVD authoring, although a lot less of that. But I just finished a batch of 100 DVDs for Central School here in Wall.
Tim Mullooly: Oh wow.
Bill Mackanic: So, people still watching-
Tim Mullooly: Yeah, they’re still doing it.
Bill Mackanic: And enjoying DVDs, so we do those. In a nutshell, what we do, really we’re advertising and we’re promoting. And every video that we do, it tells a story, but it’s a way for businesses of all sizes and all kinds just to get the word out. Listen, it’s just like you guys. Every business, there’s a story behind every business, right. And there’s no better way than video to tell that story because now your potential customers, your potential clients, they get to know you. There’s no other way.
Tim Mullooly: Exactly.
Bill Mackanic: A 30 second clip on a phone of you or your dad or your brothers talking about how you’re a family business that can help families. I mean, it’s really impactful. It really works.
Tim Mullooly: It speaks volumes compared to just reading something on your phone.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah. People are so busy nowadays, especially here in the northeast. We’re running around. People don’t have time to read like they used to.
Tim Mullooly: In terms of growing the business, how do you market Mackanic Media? Do you do any sort of advertising? You make TV commercials for other businesses. Do you have promotional stuff for you guys as well?
Bill Mackanic: Well that’s a really good question, and that’s something that I’ve struggled with myself because I’ve always been so busy helping other people advertise or other people sell that that’s always sort of taken a back burner. However, I have shot a couple of promos in the studio recently. I just haven’t gotten to editing them yet, but I’m planning on it. To answer your question, I actually just did a promotion on Instagram.
Tim Mullooly: I was going to say, that’s probably one of the best places that I could think of for a video company.
Bill Mackanic: Facebook, too. Yeah. I mean, once these … It started with YouTube and then now all of these support, all these social media platforms support video now essentially. I don’t do a whole lot. I mean, I have an old brochure here in front of me, but I can’t remember the last time I had a printing run.
Tim Mullooly: Mostly just word-of-mouth referrals?
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, yeah it’s that. Websites are really important.
Tim Mullooly: Right.
Bill Mackanic: Amazing ad agency here in Manasquan, Design 446 did my website for me and I couldn’t be more thrilled with it. I try to let the work speak for itself. And again, it isn’t all me. It’s a team. It’s our clients, too, because this is the part that I think I like the most about it, is that it is a collaboration. It’s exciting every time we go into pre-production and we start a new project. I get just as excited today as I did so many years, you know as a kid in middle school.
Tim Mullooly: That’s great.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, it’s pretty great.
Tim Mullooly: That’s how you know you’re doing what you’re meant to be doing, if you still get excited all these years later. So kind of along the same lines, you were saying you still get excited every time you go to a shoot. And you’re saying you do concerts and sporting events. If you had to pick one or two video shoots that you’ve been on, what would you say would be the most fun or a good story to tell people?
Bill Mackanic: Okay. I’m really glad and I’m really excited that you asked me that because I just recently … Actually, let me go back. Early 2017 or maybe it was December of 2016, one of my greatest clients, I mean more than that, the Bromley Group and Karen Bromley, she’s been mentor, a friend, I could just go on and on.
She runs an excellent ad agency out of Manhattan, and through good fortune and working with a photographer that I know, Andre Jackomitz, I got to know Karen and her team in New York. One of her clients had asked for her to recommend somebody to produce their mission video, and that project was a year in the making.
So literally all of 2017 and then into this year, January 2018 we worked on that project. It was a four minute mission video celebrating the 60th anniversary of an amazing non-profit.
In conjunction with that project, they also asked us more recently, maybe just a few months ago, the same organization asked us to produce a 90 second fashion video. This is all in the fashion industry. In any event, that was really exciting. It was basically, so we did the four minute mission video. That took a year.
We did the, Andre and I produced the 90 second fashion video, and what that did was it highlighted the six finalists from FIT, the Fashion Institute of Technology. There were six finalists in the FEMMY awards. The FEMMY’s a design competition. It’s actually 15 years that they’ve been doing this design competition.
Tim Mullooly: Wow.
Bill Mackanic: So we were asked to produce this video that they could show right before the awards’ presentation. While we’re working on all of these projects simultaneously and all this is coming up, well the FEMMYs are coming up and then again, they asked if we could produce, if we could shoot that night and cover the FEMMY awards. I find myself, I guess just about a week ago in Manhattan, the fashion capital of the world.
There’s 650 of the biggest names in the fashion industry, from designers and manufacturers and models and celebs and VIPs and everybody else. I’m in the middle of this beautiful room at Cipriani. We’re there. I have my best team there. I’ve got Nicole and Krista there covering the event.
We’re filming it. We’re doing interviews. We’re running around. We’re getting great interviews with the finalists from the contest and all the VIPs and everybody there.
While all this is going on, the program starts and now they present the mission video at the beginning of the program. So I get to be there-
Tim Mullooly: While the video-
Bill Mackanic: While the video’s playing.
Tim Mullooly: That’s really cool.
Bill Mackanic: It was really well received. Again, it was a team effort. It was a labor of love. It was me. It was Karen Bromley. It was Erin Lind from PBH. I mean, I couldn’t do it without these amazing people. But I got to stand there and watch that video play, and if that wasn’t exciting enough, man oh man.
At the end of the program, when they’re ready to announce the three winners, they play that video, the 90 second fashion video with the six finalists who have designs. It was just a moment that I think I’m only just really taking it all in.
Tim Mullooly: Kind of surreal to see all that hard work in the video.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah and to go so … I started my career part time temp making minimum wage. Then all these years later, to be standing there that night. To have the good fortune of being able to cover that event and present two major productions. It was thrilling and I’m humbled.
Tim Mullooly: That’s an awesome experience.
Bill Mackanic: And this is just a week ago. And I’m still reeling. I am still trying to take it all in.
Tim Mullooly: So, we’ve heard a lot about Mackanic Media so far. What’s one thing that you would want people to remember about Mackanic Media if they’ve worked with you or even if they’ve just heard about you or seen some of your work? What’s one thing that you would want them to remember?
Bill Mackanic: In my line of work, I’ve literally interviewed thousands and thousands of people. I’ve asked thousands and thousands of interview questions. And I have to say honestly, this is one of the best questions. When I say that, I mean it. I thought a lot about this because what’s important for people to remember and to know about Mackanic Media is that I meet face-to-face.
I am a social networker, but in the real world. Okay, not in the virtual computer world. I love people and I love meeting with people face-to-face, and I love learning about them and about their lives and their businesses and their families and what they like to do. All that just fascinates me. It always has.
The other thing is I always deliver on my promises. I sit here to tell you, I learned this from my parents, how important your word is and that it’s okay to say no, or it’s okay to say, “I don’t know how to do that.” If there’s something that’s beyond my abilities, I will tell a customer that so that I can sit here and honestly say that I always deliver on my promises.
Listen, I don’t want to beat up on other people, but I clean up a lot of messes in this business. A lot of my customers, a lot of our clients, they say to me, “Boy, I wish I had gone to you guys first.” That leads me into the next part about what I want people to know and what I want people to remember, is that I’ve devoted my whole life to this. I say 20 years, it’s longer than that. It’s 20 plus years of experience.
What that means is that I know how to get the job done. I’ve shot thousands … I’ve been so fortunate. I’ve worked on thousands of productions.
But that experience, it allows me number one, to get it done. I know how to get the video done right. And everything that we do is broadcast quality. I don’t care if it’s just on YouTube. YouTube is huge. I don’t care if it’s just going on Instagram. Instagram is huge. It’s very important. Everything is broadcast quality standards.
It’s important to me. It’s important to our customers. How do I do that? My experience and my equipment. I use only the best gear. I use only the best equipment. But what does that mean? It means that I can be very efficient, and efficient means cost effective.
And people should understand that when you’re talking about video production, if it sounds too good to be true when it comes to price, it probably is.
Tim Mullooly: Right.
Bill Mackanic: What I offer is value. I offer quality work at a reasonable price. I don’t take shortcuts. It’s just because I’ve been doing this for so long and I stay current. I have great young people working on my team who are right there, right at the cutting edge of the technology. We stay up on it all the time. That makes us very efficient and very cost effective.
Tim Mullooly: I can attest to that. We’ve worked together, so-
Bill Mackanic: Thanks.
Tim Mullooly: Everything that Bill just said is completely true.
Bill Mackanic: I appreciate that.
Tim Mullooly: So I can, first-hand experience.
Bill Mackanic: Well we try to go out of my way for everybody. Again, I learned that from my father. I learned the work ethic from my father. He taught us, me and my brothers and my sister, from a very young age, that you can’t take shortcuts and that your work speaks to who you are.
Tim Mullooly: We’re going to move on from the questions focused on Mackanic Media to now the usual conceptual questions that we ask all of the guests that come on here. First off, how would you define being wealthy? What does that mean to you?
Bill Mackanic: Well, I mean I guess that could … another really good question. I guess that’s meant different things to me at different times in my life. I think right now at this point, what wealthy means to me is being financially secure.
I think, as my kids are grown and I have one that’s in college now. My oldest is going to Villanova. I’m very proud of him for that. His little brothers are right behind him. I think I could speak for my wife, too, is that both of us now, we just want to be financially secure. It’s not about yachts and trips and whatever. It’s not fancy dinners and-
Tim Mullooly: All that luxurious stuff you see on TV.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, all that luxurious stuff. Yeah, it’s not that. Although we don’t mind going on a nice vacation once in a while, but-
Tim Mullooly: Everyone does.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, everybody does. No, to be wealthy would be just to be financially secure and financially stable.
Tim Mullooly: I’d have to agree with that. That’s something with preach here at Mullooly Asset a lot.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah. I learned a lot about that, especially with this last commercial we did with you guys about how you’re helping people plan for retirement.
Tim Mullooly: Right.
Bill Mackanic: A lot of people don’t want to think about that, myself included. I don’t want to think about that. But what you … You help us to think about that. And it’s something now that I try to teach my kids.
They could take the easy path now when they’re young and then wind up being on the hard road later on down the road, right. Or if work hard now and you plan, like what you guys are teaching, you plan for the future. You work hard now and you plan for the future and you do the right thing, it’s going to be great later.
Tim Mullooly: It makes the road a lot smoother going forward. Sort it out now. Get things in order.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah. I’m trying to practice what I preach, I guess.
Tim Mullooly: So let’s say you had a time machine. If you could travel back in time, say 10, 15 years, give yourself some advice. What would you say?
Bill Mackanic: I’ll tell you what. I got the advice that I wish I would have listened to. Here’s the thing about video production and here’s the thing about my industry. A film or a video or a TV show, these things, their value is really based upon how many people watch it and how many people enjoy it, right, or get something out of it, say.
My late father-in-law, God rest his soul, he was an advertising executive for 40 years in New York. He told me, it may have been maybe even longer, but I’m going to say about 15 years ago. I was still in public television.
He said to me, he said, “Listen, this is great. Television production is awesome. You’re an artist. I’m an artist. You get to create. You get to express yourself and you get to tell a story.” He’s like, “but really,” he’s like, “where it’s all going is advertising.” He was way ahead of his time.
He knew, because in his world, when he started in the business, he was hand drawing ads for Hertz and Bank of America. I mean, I could show you some of the ads that he left me that he hand did for these magazines 30 years ago that would just blow you away. He was an incredible artist. But with computers and Photoshop and other graphics programs like that, he had to learn and he had to adapt with the technology.
I mean, with computers coming into the graphic design business, it changed everything. What he was trying to tell me was he wanted to see me get on the fast track to advertising. He tried to explain it to me in a nice way, that every video, every show, it was either selling a good or a service.
Documentaries have a place. Educational programming certainly has a place. Listen, I’m a huge supporter of public television, educational programming, and certainly a fan of documentaries.
However, what I’m doing now, I’m helping people get their name out there. I’m helping businesses big and small get the word out, and that’s really what video production’s about. That’s really what Mackanic Media’s about. It’s about spreading the word, and he was trying to tell me that. It just took me a while to figure that out.
Tim Mullooly: Right. So you got the advice, and it just took a little while to sink in, but you did eventually take the advice.
Bill Mackanic: Eventually, I did. That was a big … His support and encouragement really was one of the reasons why I decided to get out on my own. He really got behind me, so did my wife. You just need a couple people to believe in you.
Tim Mullooly: You’ve got to have that support system behind you.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah.
Tim Mullooly: Looking at money that you bring in from the business as a means to an end, what would you say is your end game? To explain that a little better, what does money allow you to do outside of Mackanic Media that brings you enjoyment or passion or fulfillment?
Bill Mackanic: We were talking about this a little bit. I really like buying new gear. I do like new stuff.
Tim Mullooly: Staying up to date with all the- Technology’s always changing.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah. I just got a new computer, new software, lenses. That’s a, I was going to say guilty pleasure. No, it’s more like I have a lot less buyer’s remorse when I buy gear and equipment because it goes right back into my business, but I’m just … Listen, I get a new drone and I’m a kid at Christmas, you know. I’m not going to lie. I think being able to spend time with my family, that’s where I get the most joy.
It’s even more fun when you get to go see a professional sporting event or you get to go on that vacation, you get to share those things together. We get to stay in nice places. We love the beach. We go to North Carolina, we go to South Carolina, of course here at the Jersey Shore. My studio’s from beautiful Belmar Beach.
Tim Mullooly: It doesn’t get much better than that.
Bill Mackanic: Yeah, it doesn’t really. We live essentially in the woods in farmland here. My neighbors have horses, and then I’m a 10 minute drive to the ocean.
Tim Mullooly: 10 minutes from the beach, yeah.
Bill Mackanic: We’ve talked about that, too. It’s beautiful. So, being able to live here in this beautiful place, in this awesome county. That’s what brings me to fulfillment is the fact that we can actually afford to live here and our kids get to go to some amazing schools. I get to work with some really incredible people here in New Jersey.
Tim Mullooly: I agree.
Bill Mackanic: It’s pretty great.
Tim Mullooly: Yeah, I’ve been here my whole life and it’s a pretty great place to live.
Bill Mackanic: Not to mention where we’re sitting is practically half way between New York City and Philadelphia. In my opinion, the greatest cities on the planet, they’re right here, and we get to call them our own. It’s pretty special. It’s pretty cool, right?
Tim Mullooly: Awesome. That’s going to do it for this episode of Living with Money. Bill, thanks for coming on. I really appreciated you taking the time to answer some questions for us.
Bill Mackanic: All right. Well, thanks a lot for having me. I appreciate it.
Tim Mullooly: If you’re listening to this on iTunes, please subscribe to the podcast to get new episodes every week, and feel free to leave us a review or a comment, because it would really mean a lot to us. Be sure to follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @LWM_podcast for more news and updates about the show.
If you have a question that you’d like us to answer on Living with Money, get in touch with us. You can email us at LivingWithMoneyPod@gmail.com, you can find us on Facebook and send us a message there, you can Tweet at us on Twitter, shoot us a message on Instagram. We’d be happy to answer any of your questions.
I’m going to link to Mackanic Media in the show notes, so for anyone who wants to see some of Bill’s work and his team’s work, feel free to go check out their website, YouTube videos and everything as well. Like I said, that’s going to do it for this episode. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you on the next one.
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